MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
This week, an email landed in my inbox, subject line - an assassination in Minnesota, a reference to the killing last weekend of a Minnesota state representative and her husband. The email was a fundraising pitch to support efforts by Democrats to fight gun violence. What caught my eye was who was making the pitch - Gabby Giffords, the former Arizona congresswoman who, as her email notes, knows the horror of a targeted shooting all too well.
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GABBY GIFFORDS: January 8, 2011, changed my life forever. I was a congresswoman. I was shot in my head while meeting with my constituents. I couldn't walk. I couldn't talk.
KELLY: Gabby Giffords speaking with me in 2022. As she mentioned, she has struggled with talking, with speech, since she was shot outside a Safeway in Tucson. Since then, 14 years now, she has worked for gun safety. She co-founded GIFFORDS - that's an advocacy group - and she joins me again today, along with Emma Brown, the executive director of GIFFORDS. Welcome to you both.
EMMA BROWN: Thanks so much for having us.
GIFFORDS: Thank you very much.
KELLY: And I want to add a note on how we are doing this interview. The GIFFORDS team suggested that we pose specific questions in a specific way to enable Gabby Giffords to give fuller answers. So what you are about to hear is me asking some of those questions and then, when needed, following up and asking additional questions of our own.
I want to start with Melissa Hortman, who is the - who was the Minnesota lawmaker who was killed along with her husband. Gabby Giffords, I know that you were friends with her?
GIFFORDS: Yes. Melissa Horton (ph). Perfect, perfect, perfect.
BROWN: Yeah, Gabby met Melissa several years ago when we were working to pass gun safety legislation in Minnesota. So when she was the speaker of the Minnesota House, she and Governor Walz helped us get a red flag law passed in Minnesota as well as an expanded background checks law. It is a really devastating loss that obviously also hits very close to home for Gabby and for the origins of this organization.
KELLY: Speaking of getting legislation passed, this month marks the three-year anniversary of the passage of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act, which enhanced background checks for young gun buyers. It increased funding for mental health services. It did a bunch of other things. Congresswoman, are you optimistic about further meaningful change on this issue?
GIFFORDS: I'm optimistic. It will be a long, hard haul, but I'm optimistic.
BROWN: You know, this week, on Tuesday, was actually also the 10-year anniversary of the Charleston shooting.
KELLY: Yeah.
BROWN: So Gabby and I actually were in Charleston...
KELLY: OK.
BROWN: ...To mark the 10 years with Mother Emanuel AME Church. And Gabby got up at the service and - Gabby, do you want to share what you said?
GIFFORDS: Hope and faith. Hope and faith. Hope and faith.
BROWN: Hope and faith. We think about the tragedies that pile up from guns in America, and often the last thing people think of is hope and faith, but...
KELLY: It's hard.
BROWN: It is really hard, you know?
KELLY: Yeah.
BROWN: But I was sitting there in that church on Tuesday, and Gabby was up at the pulpit, and she said, hope and faith, and you could hear the room inhale.
KELLY: Yeah. I started this conversation by talking about the email - the fundraiser email that I received from you, Congresswoman, this week. And you signed that email, with courage, which says a lot. Do you not ever want to give up?
GIFFORDS: No way, Jose. Move ahead, do not look back. I hope it's (ph) - are inspired to keep moving forward, no matter what.
BROWN: You know, Gabby says the words, move ahead, a lot. It's part of a lot of her speeches, part of the words that she has relearned. And there's actually a little bit of an origin story to that, if you'd permit me telling it.
KELLY: Please.
BROWN: When Gabby was a kid and a teenager, she loved theater, specifically musical theater. And one of her favorite shows was "Annie."
GIFFORDS: (Singing) The sun'll come out tomorrow.
BROWN: (Laughter).
GIFFORDS: (Singing) So you've got to hang on till tomorrow...
BROWN: That one.
GIFFORDS: ... (Singing) Come what may.
KELLY: Woo-hoo.
BROWN: That's right, that one.
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BROWN: Yes (laughter), very good.
KELLY: Clapping.
BROWN: Yeah, yeah. And so she and her mom, Gloria, would sing that to one another when she was a kid. And then when Gabby was shot, you know, she was in a coma for some days after the shooting, and her mom, Gloria, sat by her bed and held her hand and sang to her, you know, tomorrow, tomorrow. And that essence, you know, of the hope that there may be a tomorrow that is different, the courage to move ahead, is really at the core of the work that we do and how Gabby approaches the work.
And as a side note, the bullet that entered her brain impacted her ability to speak. You know, she wants to - she knows what she wants to say, but she can't get the words out. It actually didn't impact her musical ability.
KELLY: No.
BROWN: ...Which is a miracle, so...
KELLY: I can tell.
BROWN: Yeah.
KELLY: (Laughter).
BROWN: So she has perfect tune - far better than I do. And her recall and her ability to sing has remained untouched.
KELLY: And maintaining hope in the face of the shooting after shooting after shooting in this country is beautiful. I will note that the last time we spoke - that was three years ago - and that was in the aftermath of the shootings in Uvalde, Texas, that left 21 people dead. We're here today because of the deadly shootings in Minnesota. Investigators in Minnesota are still trying to figure out what the motive may have been. We do know that the man who has been charged had multiple guns in his vehicle.
BROWN: He had multiple AK-47s in his vehicle.
KELLY: There is no evidence, though...
BROWN: Yeah.
KELLY: ...That they were acquired illegally. There's no criminal history that would have raised a red flag and prevented the purchase. What laws would have prevented this? What laws would you like to see changed?
BROWN: Yeah, it's a great question.
GIFFORDS: Better gun laws and background checks.
BROWN: Yeah, that's right.
KELLY: But there was nothing in his background that would have, as I say, set off...
BROWN: Right.
KELLY: ...A red flag.
BROWN: Right. Yeah, so there's still a lot to understand about the details of the shooting. But I think we need to ask ourselves, how is it that somebody who was that dangerous, who had a list of legislators on him, who was driving to their homes to hunt and kill them, was allowed to roll around with at least three AK-47s and a handgun and military gear? So that, you know, I think is the fundamental question. And your question about what policies would have prevented this is a good one, and I think we'll know more about that as we get more details on this.
And Gabby, I think one thing we would also just point out is that something that surprises people a lot about this issue is how much progress we've made. You know, just like you don't think about hope, when you think about guns in America you don't think about progress. But in actuality, you know, Gabby founded this organization 12 years ago, and in that period of time we've passed over 700 laws at the state level to further gun safety. And you just heard her say, better gun laws, and that's because, you know, in states that have stronger gun laws, fewer people are dying. That's been proven now.
KELLY: Last question, and this is for you, Gabby Giffords, and it's about the long view. It has been 14 years since you were injured. What have you learned from your experiences over those 14 years?
GIFFORDS: To be grateful for friends and family, and to live every day to the fullest. Hope, hope, hope.
KELLY: Yeah. That is former Arizona Democratic Congresswoman Gabby Giffords and Emma Brown, the executive director of GIFFORDS, the advocacy group she co-founded to promote gun safety. Thank you to you both.
BROWN: Thank you for having us.
GIFFORDS: Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
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