STEVE INSKEEP, HOST:
We've called up Mariam Masumi Daud, who is an attorney who specializes in immigration law. She's based in Northern Virginia. Good morning.
MARIAM MASUMI DAUD: Good morning.
INSKEEP: Well, what do you think about the idea of a quota?
MASUMI DAUD: I think a quota is something that's going to have a chilling effect, especially on eligible immigrants who may want to apply for citizenship. This really pulls away USCIS agency resources from its core functions. Giving this as a priority to the Immigration Service will essentially cause individuals to not only not apply for citizenship, but create backlogs for other types of immigration cases that people may want to pursue. And citizenship is something that's really supposed to be secure. And a policy that emphasizes denaturalization by having quotas and having this high volume really risks creating more of a two-tier system of citizenship, where naturalized Americans might feel...
INSKEEP: Yeah.
MASUMI DAUD: ...Conditionally American, and that's a problem.
INSKEEP: I do want to put this in the perspective of the numbers, however. There are tens of millions of Americans who are naturalized citizens. I just was looking it up. In fiscal 2024, 800,000 people were naturalized. And this quota would be between 1,200 and 2,400 people a year - a tiny fraction of the number of people who are actually out there as citizens, right?
MASUMI DAUD: It is a tiny number. But again, I think the problem here is that it's going to create fear in a lot of people. So although, you know, the numbers here are very small, the broader implications are that individuals will really feel anxiety and unsafe about whether or not their citizenship is going to be intact. And I think that's really the big problem here.
INSKEEP: When you have worked denaturalization cases in the past - defending someone, I presume - what sorts of violations or alleged violations have there been?
MASUMI DAUD: Those have involved cases where there have been serious problems with respect to an individual's identity and very strong allegations regarding fraud. And so as someone who has seen individuals go through the denaturalization process, I want to stress that it is traditionally something that's used in rare cases and in extreme situations. It is not something that has been meant to be used in a sweeping way. And that's where this policy becomes very concerning because when there are quotas given, that's where there is a concern for an abuse of the policy.
INSKEEP: Well, let's talk about what you think is fair and legitimate here and what is not. I presume then if somebody has completely faked their identity to get citizenship in the United States, you don't have a problem with denaturalizing in that case. But there are these other requirements. For example, people have to assert that they have, quote, "good moral character" or that they have an attachment to the U.S. Constitution. Are you concerned about vague requirements being used to just throw people out?
MASUMI DAUD: Absolutely, because, again, one of the requirements, as you stated, for naturalization is for somebody who's attached to the principles of the United States Constitution and the happiness of the United States. And when individuals apply for naturalization, there are many questions on the naturalization application with respect to that. And so there have been concerns about the administration looking back at people's answers to those applications and targeting individuals based on their conduct post-naturalization, particularly with respect to their political speech or beliefs and basically make the argument that denaturalization would be appropriate as a result of that conduct.
INSKEEP: I want to ask about another important category of this while we have time, and that is people who were adopted in the United States. There are many people who were adopted from overseas. They were brought here. Their citizenship may be very firm. Maybe their parents did not get all the paperwork done. How vulnerable are people in that position, and what advice would you give them?
MASUMI DAUD: As far as people who were adopted, the vast majority of individuals who have gone through the adoption process and are now U.S. citizens are probably subject to what we call the Child Citizenship Act of 2001. And so they are generally in the clear as far as denaturalization is concerned, and that's because their citizenship is automatically acquired by operation of law. So if they come into the United States as permanent residents under the age of 18 and they're in the custody of a U.S. citizen parent, they automatically become U.S. citizens. They don't go through the naturalization process, so denaturalization would not apply to them. Now, individuals who are not subject to that law, who are older adoptees who have gone through naturalization might feel more concerned, but it would literally come down to whether or not there was fraud or significant problems with the way in which they were adopted for denaturalization purposes.
INSKEEP: Very helpful. Mariam Masumi Daud, immigration lawyer. Thank you so much. Really appreciate it.
MASUMI DAUD: Thank you.
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