MARY LOUISE KELLY, HOST:
Here at the Munich Security Conference - which, as you may be able to hear, is still in full swing behind me - we are meeting all kinds of fascinating people, including Chrystia Freeland. She was the deputy prime minister of Canada. She served in the cabinet until last year in Canada's parliament until last month. Then - how is this for a career pivot? - she decided to work to advance the interests of a different country. Freeland is now an economic adviser to Volodymyr Zelenskyy, the president of Ukraine. Now, that is a story I want to hear. So, Chrystia Freeland, thank you for joining me here at the front entrance of the Munich Security Conference, watching all kinds of people come and go. Nice to see you.
CHRYSTIA FREELAND: Nice to see you, Mary Louise. And NPR and ALL THINGS CONSIDERED are two of my favorite things. So it's a real thrill for me to be with you.
KELLY: We love to hear it. Thank you. This new role in Ukraine that came around last month - how did that unfold? Like, who called who? Did Zelenskyy call you and say, I need you. Please come to our team?
FREELAND: Well, Mary Louise, I had decided last fall that I was leaving Canadian politics. I had been a cabinet minister for 10 years - huge privilege - and I had been an MP for 12 years - even greater privilege. And then, just before Christmas, President Zelenskyy did ask me if I would serve as his unpaid volunteer economic adviser.
KELLY: And this is personal for you, right? You grew up speaking English and Ukrainian. Your mom has - you have Ukrainian grandparents. Your mom - you're raising your kids bilingual, right?
FREELAND: Well, my kids speak many languages 'cause they're Canadian. I speak Ukrainian at home. I grew up speaking Ukrainian. This is not that unusual in Canada. We have a big and vibrant Ukrainian Canadian community, and I've always been proud to be a daughter of that community.
KELLY: So the work as an economic adviser, I'm trying to think just how you manage to balance, we want a healthy economy in Ukraine. We want to meet Ukraine's - figure out what Ukraine's eventual economic goals are and get there. But meanwhile, there's incoming fire every day. It's not like you have a easy, level playing field to start from.
FREELAND: You know, Mary Louise, that is exactly the right question. And I had a meeting on Tuesday with the prime minister and a few of her key ministers. And I was talking about the post-war economic future, I thought, very compellingly. And after a couple of minutes, Yulia said, Chrystia, that's great what you're saying, and it sounds really good. But right now, all we're trying to do is keep the lights on and keep people from freezing to death. And that was a real reality check for me. But...
KELLY: It tempers one's ambitions in the moment.
FREELAND: Well, actually, I don't think it does because I think Ukraine needs to be extremely ambitious on the economic front. But it helped put into perspective for me where Ukraine is right now and also to recognize where they need to get to.
KELLY: Does it worry you that Ukraine is not quite so front and center on the agenda in people's minds at a conference like this, as it might've been a couple of years ago? Europe is dealing with multiple crisis, trying to juggle many things all at once. Ukraine is one of them.
FREELAND: Yes. Having said that, I actually have been struck by the extent to which the Munich Security Conference and Germany have really been putting Ukraine at the center. Here at the conference, there is a Ukraine house. They've given Ukraine its own fixed space to make its case.
KELLY: For the first year ever, right out the window...
FREELAND: Yeah.
KELLY: ...Where we're standing. The big...
FREELAND: And Ukraine is the only country...
KELLY: The blue and yellow Ukrainian flag.
FREELAND: ...That has one. That's a big deal. And I was very struck by Chancellor Merz's speech. I felt he was very strong on Ukraine. He made a point of emphasizing something that I think is absolutely right, that Ukraine is not only fighting for its own democracy, it is fighting for the world.
And I actually think Europe is starting to see Ukraine differently and more accurately. I think when the war started, Ukraine was seen as, you know, a righteous, innocent victim, as a worthy object of pity and philanthropy. And that's true. Ukraine has been wronged. Ukraine is a righteous, innocent victim. But Ukraine is more than that, and Ukraine today has the strongest army in Europe. The Europeans are seeing the value there, and they're also seeing the value in Ukraine as a military innovator. They're seeing the value of Ukraine as Europe's shield and as Europe's arsenal. That's a different perspective.
KELLY: Let's talk about a rupture in the world order, a term coined by Canada's Prime Minister Mark Carney in Davos last month. Now everybody's using it. You served in his cabinet. Do you agree? Is there a rupture in the world order?
FREELAND: Absolutely.
KELLY: What...
FREELAND: And I think particularly...
KELLY: What - I mean, from your perspective, what is the rupture?
FREELAND: Well, I think it's pretty obvious. You know, I think that it's most obvious to America's closest allies. We are grateful for the post-war leadership of the United States. But what we're seeing now is the United States not always respecting our sovereignty and treating us differently. And I would say...
KELLY: You're talking about threats to make Canada the 51st state or to take Greenland one way or the other.
FREELAND: Yeah. And those are completely unacceptable. And I think it's important for us to recognize that that's a big deal and...
KELLY: Is it permanent? Is it reversible, or is this permanent?
FREELAND: That is a question for Americans. And, you know, it is. Like, you guys have to decide who you want to be in the world. I can make a case to you that the reason why the United States has been so successful is in your history, you have this huge, non-militarized northern border, and you have never had to worry about it. And on the economy, you know, I think Americans sometimes think, oh, those Canadians, they're so much smaller than us. But we are your largest export market by a long way. And you are the country, I think, that invented the great phrase, the customer is always right. Well, we're your best customer, and we're happy about it. But please stop insulting us all the time.
KELLY: Chrystia Freeland was deputy prime minister of Canada. She's now an unpaid economic adviser to President Zelenskyy of Ukraine. Good to see you. Thank you.
FREELAND: Good to be with you.
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