AYESHA RASCOE, HOST:
German broadcaster Deutsche Welle says the U.S. got a geopolitical dressing-down this weekend at the Munich Security Conference. Constanze Stelzenmuller is in Munich and joins us now. She's the director of the Center on the United States and Europe at the Brookings Institution. Welcome.
CONSTANZE STELZENMULLER: Thank you, Ayesha. I am - probably need to apologize for the audio. I'm standing - I just left - went out of a lunch and I'm standing in a hotel corridor, but that's how you have to roll here. It's bizarre.
RASCOE: OK. Well, thank you. Thank you for that notice, and we'll keep that in mind. You know, getting back to this idea of this dressing down, it came from German Chancellor Friedrich Merz Friday. He sees a less rules-based order and more competition.
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CHANCELLOR FRIEDRICH MERZ: In the era of great power, rivalry, even the United States will not be powerful enough to go it alone.
RASCOE: Is that the sentiment shared by the rest of the European Union?
STELZENMULLER: Well, I wouldn't call that a dressing down. I think it was a polite but very firm warning, which is to say, look, we hear you and you, Americans, are telling us that, you know, we have the wrong values and the wrong ideas. And if - we understand that we need to do more of our own defense, bear the burden of our own security. We're doing that. We would like to do that with you. But if you - and here he was extremely explicit. If you talk to us about these MAGA values, we can't follow you. And then he said, yes, America alone will be America alone.
RASCOE: And is that the general sentiment in Europe right now?
STELZENMULLER: Well, you - I think we probably have to make an exception for the government of Viktor Orban in Hungary and the government of Robert Fico in Slovakia. But, I mean, I talked to a lot of people here in these past three days, and I think the sentiment is widely shared.
RASCOE: In Secretary of State Marco Rubio's speech yesterday, there was no mention of Greenland, which President Trump had been threatening to overtake. Instead...
STELZENMULLER: Or of Ukraine.
RASCOE: Yes. Yeah. Well, that's - we're going to get to that as well.
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RASCOE: Instead, Rubio spoke about shared history and wars fought side by side. So how did you interpret his speech and what he said and what he didn't say?
STELZENMULLER: Well, I think your colleague was exactly right just now, saying that the tone attempted to be conciliatory and a tone of outreach, but the substance was very much the same. There was no mention of the biggest land war in Europe since 1945, no mention of the predatory grab for Greenland and an emphasis on Christianity and on, you know, shared civilizational values, which to a Europe that deeply values the contributions of its non-Christian citizens - Jews and Muslims and others or of agnostics or atheists, for that matter - and that believes it is founded also on enlightenment principles of truth-seeking and empiricism, that message is unappealing. Let me put it that way.
RASCOE: Well, I mean, do you - but do you take anything, or do you think there's any significance to Rubio at least taking a different tone versus JD Vance in Davos...
STELZENMULLER: Well...
RASCOE: ...Where he was scolding Europe?
STELZENMULLER: Sure. I mean, I think it was an attempt - I'm sorry, that was a door banging behind me. But I think he - it was an attempt, as I said, of reaching out. But let me add a point that you haven't made. There was a reference in the speech where he said, we don't want you to be shackled by guilt and shame. Now, that language is directly - I mean, echoes, and it's unmissable. Echoes the language of the German hard right. In a year where we have five regional elections in Germany, and in two of which, the German hard-right party, AfD, might reach a governing majority. And so that is seen as part of the bridge-building by the MAGA right to the European hard right. And again, that's not appreciated.
RASCOE: You mentioned Ukraine and that Rubio did not talk about Ukraine, but it was at the center of a lot of the discussions this weekend. Peace talks still seem to be at an impasse. Russia continues to make kind of creeping progress on the battlefield. How does the Ukrainian position look now?
STELZENMULLER: Let me say one thing as it looked from here, right? It's clear that the Europeans have both resigned themselves but are also very firm about continuing to support Ukraine. There was a huge Ukrainian presence here. There was a dedicated space for Ukrainian events. Zelenskyy spoke here very movingly. There were other Ukrainian speakers. You know, this is light years away from what it was like 10 years ago, where the Ukrainians were seen as sort of, you know, alien interlopers that didn't really belong into Europe. That mood has really changed. But, I mean, to pick up your point, the situation on the battlefield is not great, and the Russians continue to brutally bombard Ukrainian cities and heating infrastructure. And again, to have the U.S. secretary of state speak to Europeans, give a whole speech without ever mentioning that - right? - and the fact that the Russians are perpetrating hybrid warfare acts on a daily basis across Europe is really jarring.
RASCOE: Well, when you say that European or European leaders have resigned themselves to supporting Ukraine, how so? And how do they do that without - if they feel like they're not getting the full backing of the U.S.? Or do they feel like they're getting the full backing of the U.S.?
STELZENMULLER: Well, at this point, the deal with the U.S. is we buy American weapons to give to Ukraine, and we are the sole financial funders of Ukraine right now. It's not good to have - to feel that you don't have overt and full-throated political backing from the U.S. And I think that many people worry that maybe that, you know, even the pipeline of weapons to buy for Ukraine would also go dry.
RASCOE: That's Constanze Stelzenmuller of the Brookings Institution. Thank you so much for speaking with us.
STELZENMULLER: My pleasure. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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